A.—4b

the day's work is done. If a planter is in the position of being able to afford a reasonable amount of liquor I do not see why he should not have it. Under such a system as outlined, do you think that there is any reasonable chance of it getting into the hands of the Natives ? —lt certainly would ; but if a term of imprisonment was imposed But I mean, under the strict conditions in that report, do you think that it would get into the hands of the Natives ?—Yes. To any extent ? —No, I do not think to any extent. Do you think it is fair, then, this prohiting of the whites, especially with regard to the old residents who have been here over thirty years, without asking them about it ?—Having read the mandate, I do not think it was a fair thing to take it away in the manner they did. Mr. Meredith.] I understand Mr. Gibbs, that you are in favour of bringing in liquor under permit. Do you agree with the statements in the European report ? Have you seen the report from the Citizens Committee ?—No. I will read this to you : " As for the effect on the Samoans, only the most prejudiced would attempt to gainsay the fact that the law has the most adverse effect on the Samoans, who have nearly all learnt to make and drink home brew." Is that correct ?—Yes, to a certain extent. To what extent ? —Well, the average planter and the average person on the beach who makes it, generally with the help of Samoans or Native servants, teaches these Natives how to brew, and the Natives take that knowledge outside. And that knowledge taken out by the servants, has that knowledge got among the Samoans generally ? —I would not say " generally," but it has come to my knowledge that it has happened. But not generally ? —No, I think not generally, but it has happened and will always happen whilst the prohibition system is in force. There is no system, of course, that will not be abused to some extent ? —No, in no country. That is, of course, unless we get a nation of perfection almost I—Yes, but we have still to find it. Respecting the Europeans, I will read this extract: "As for the Europeans, the result has been most deplorable. Hardly one who has any taste for beer, wine, or spirits at all has not broken the law in some." Is that a fair statement \ —l should say that the majority of Europeans have broken the law in the manufacturing of drink in their homes. That is, in making a brew of over 3 per cent ? —Yes, sir. Again, this extract: "It is doubtful if any one would resist a chance to smuggle liquor when the occasion arises." Is that a correct statement ? —Yes, because there again we have the penalty. So far as the Europeans are concerned, I understand, Mr. Gibbs, that it is only the penalty that deters them ? —Well, to a great extent. The Europeans have not got sufficient respect for the law in that they will obey it only when the punishment is too severe ? —I have smuggled whisky myself, but I would not take the risk any further when T saw two or three others fined £25. Mr. Slipper.] Do you suggest that as a general thing you have no respect for law and order ? — I have every respect for law and order. Tt, is purely this law, then, that you have no respect for ? —I have no respect for it now, because I do not think it is a just law. Well, with regard to home brewing, do you think, as an old settler here, that there is any likelihood of its spreading among the Natives ! —As long as there is the importation of this stuff there is every likelihood. But if stopped, what about the local drinks ? —There are ample products to make it from. Mr. Meredith.'] Another aspect of the matter : the Samoan has already learnt to brew ? —Yes, sir. Well, would the allowance of a limited quantity of liquor to the Europeans prevent the Samoan from going on brewing if they or he has acquired the taste for it ?—Tf the law allows the Europeans a reasonable quantity of liquor, I am sure that those Europeans would assist, so far as that is concerned, to stop the brewing by Natives. It will not stop the Natives brewing for themselves ? —No, except that the main thing they brew from, the " All in One," will be stopped. Would they not go along and brew from something else ?—No ; it is this " Ail in One " that they have learned most about and what they have been taught most about. Paul Oscar Emil Hoeflich sworn and examined. Mr. Slipper.] What is your occupation ? —Cordial-manufacturer. And how long have you been living in Samoa ?—Thirty-six years in Apia. Consequently, there were the three Powers ruling here at that time ?—Yes, the three Powers. After that you were here during the German period, the occupation, and now the present Administration ? —Yes. What is your opinion about that, as far as the old residents are concerned ?—ln the old days there were not so many white ladies here, and people did not trouble themselves to walk straight, but now it is different. In those days was there drinking to any extent amongst the Samoans ?—No, there was not, and I know of no facts about drunkenness. Certainly some of the Samoan boys that were employed by the hotels would occasionally pinch some liquor and perhaps get drunk. But as far as the Natives living generally in Samoa were concerned there was no trouble ?—No ; they did not seem to have a taste for it at all. Under the German Government there was a fine of £50.

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