1.—13 A.

Evidence of Mr. C. J. Forbes, Christchurch. Commercial Trust Act passed for protection to public as a wliole, not any one section. The public consists of producers, manufacturers, agents, wholesalers, retailers, and consumers, all of whom are in a greater or lesser degree employers of labour. The intention of the Act was good as trading was then operated, but conditions of trading have changed vastly since, and the pendulum has swung to the opposite side. It was not conceived at that time that producers, manufacturers, &c., would need the protection that is so vitally needed now, owing to the advent in this country of chain and department stores. This type of trading has persistently reduced the prices paid to producers, manufacturers, &c., and so far as the smaller of these were concerned has ultimately forced them on to a bare existence, if not actual extinction. Many manufacturers or packers of lines, well known to the public, because of years of effort and energy, found their lines being ruthlessly cut because of their non-agreement to lower prices for these large stores and chains, as against those older traders who had so materially assisted in the building up of the goodwill towards these lines. Evidence can be produced to prove that, having built a reputation for price-reduction on these well-known lines, they are now turned adrift and not stocked, but their own lines carrying a far greater margin of profit put in their place. Evidence can also be produced of these chain stores, after having been given better terms of buying, agreeing to higher and controlled prices for same, thus gaining a double benefit for themselves, and forgetting those to whom they had promised a lower cost of living. Another method of recouping to themselves some of the losses thus sustained was through their employees. Why were workers covered by an award offered an inducement to resign from their unions ? Why were shop-managers asked to sign a separate and unfair agreement at the risk of losing their positions in cases of refusal ? Why was the proportion clause so strongly fought ? Why, also, are different prices charged in different localities ? Why, also, are department stores allowed to handle grocery lines with lower-paid wages to their assistants than the Grocers' award. This applies to many other trades as well. In conclusion, may I venture the opinion that the proposed amendments do not in any way violate the intention of the Act itself, but do honestly give a protection to the public never previously anticipated. Mr. Healy.] What happened in connection with fixing the award ?— I happened to be one of the assessors to the grocers at the Conciliation proceedings, and the shop-managers' class and the proportion clause were very strongly fought by the chain-store people. They were the only two clauses we were unable to come to agreement on in the Council and they were referred to the Arbitration Court. You say all the workers covered by the award were offered an inducement to resign from their unions ?—I have it here. We attach hereto a copy of an agreement which we intend to have sent out to all shop-managers with the object of the staff and ourselves working in harmony ; and so on. Then it goes on to say : — We sincerely hope that as a result of arranging with other unions you will form an industrial union of your own, elect your own officers, elect your own secretary, but need not have a paid official, and I would be pleased to assist you in any way. I hope you will not misunderstand me and think it is my endeavour to throw your unions over, but I do suggest I will do all in my power to assist in the formation of such a union to safeguard your interests. I will not assist you in any way if you link up with the Grocers' Union. What is the outcome of it ? —Well, of course, I cannot tell you. I believe the outcome of it was that the majority of the shop-managers refused to sign. However, not being an employee, I cannot tell you. You think they separated the shop-managers from the award ? —Yes, it is done now ; there is an award. It is a matter of ten months since those conciliation proceedings and the matter was referred to the Arbitration Court. That Court took six months to decide on it, and last week we got information that the award had been made. A separate class was made bringing the shop-managers under this award. What do you say was the purpose of that endeavour to isolate the shop - managers and form a special union ?—I presume it was to weaken the power of the Grocers' Assistants' Union. You would make a suggestion that way ? —I would not make a suggestion that way. You have evidence of different prices for different localities ?—I have it here. It may be informative to know that this list immediately followed this other Self-Help list, which was published in November of 1934. This one immediately followed it, and it refers to Beckenham afid Sydenham. That is my own list for the latter. lam in Beckenham. What is the explanation ?—The explanation in Sydenham is that their manager left and started in opposition. So far as the Beckenham man is concerned, I understand he was dismissed and started a shop in opposition to the shop he was working at, and he also started a shop in Wilton Boad. The reason is to squash that man out of business. Personally, lam not'so much concerned whether he goes out of business, but I am up against his competition, and you, gentlemen, all know when prices are cut and when they are not cut. To my mind, prices are cut when articles are sold at a price which does not show a margin of profit.

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