a.—s.

74

Ph. koherb.

69. You think that only a very few boys taught at Te Aute would succeed —even if they entered a university—in professional life?— Yes, a very small proportion, as the Maori race is at present. Of course the Maori intellect may be improved and developed. 70. And industrial training would be of immense benefit to them?— Yes, and also to the State. 71. You think Te Aute well fitted for an industrial college?— Yes. The climate does not suit some of the northern boys. Some boys have lost their lives through the cold climate; but, speaking generally, the climate is suitable for carrying on agricultural work. 72. Mr. Lee.] Do you think the University deals fairly by the Maori boys in that it expects the same measure of work from the Maori boy .as from other students?—We have asked the Theological Board to make a certain allowance for a pupil who is a Maori, and not to ask him to pass the same percentage. 73. He has to answer in English, which is practically a foreign language? —Yes. Some of our boys have been to the University, and have done well. I did not succeed so well—not on account of my English, but on account of mathematics. 74. You express the opinion that the boys should be graded, by which I understand you to mean that those who are going up for higher work, such as matriculation, should be separated from those who are not?— Yes; and those who did not go on to higher education should be told that farming would be better for them, after going to the Fifth Standard. 75. Would you divide them into classes—those who are going up for matriculation and those who are going in for farming?— Those would be the general divisions. Of course some other changes might be made here and there. 76. You have been in a class for woodwork in a technical school? —Yes. 77. Did you not find that the instruction you received was a better equipment in carpentering than training in a shop would be? —Quite so. It does not teach us the trade, but the principles of it. 78. Do you not think it is better to teach the principles of agriculture than to attempt to make farmers of the students, as it were, by practical work? —Cannot they both be taught at an agricultural college—the principles first and then, the practical work after ? 79. In any technical subject there will be a modicum of practical work, but the great bulk of the work will be on principles?—l do not think a purely technical college would be the best thing. It should lead on to more practical work. 80. I understand you to think that there should be one secondary school for the Maoris and that Te Aute is the best?— Yes. 81. If Te Aute is to be the best for a secondary school, presumably the greater part of the work must be secondary-school work?— Yes; but seeing that a very small percentage of the boys going to Te Aute receive secondary education—about five out of the total number—l think it should not be a secondary institution—a purely secondary school —but with an industrial branch connected with it, into which the bulk of the boys should be drafted. 82. Most of the time of the boys going to Te Aute must be devoted to secondary education: there is not, the time to put in the work of an agricultural college?— Going on to the station would practically mean the severance of the boys from Te Aute. If it was a purely technical education, it means that a boy would have to be a cadet on a station before he becomes an expert farmer, and the Maoris cannot do that. 83. I contend that it is impractical for Te Aute to be at once a technical school and an agricultural college: that the best that can be done is to have Te Aute as a secondary school, and tack on to it technical education and agriculture. Do you not think that is practicable and suitable, and that by-and-by the boy could get his practical experience ?—Yes, I see what you contend. 84. The Chairman.] I understand you to say you would like to see the boys who are to devote themselves to the learned professions classified at Te Aute and prepared for the universities, and the other boys taught in practical industrial work? —Yes, on the estate itself. A boy who joins the industrial department should give up purely scholastic work when he has passed a certain standard 1 . 85. Mr. Ngata.] Mr. Lee was pointing out that technical instruction in agriculture could not be a portion of the secondary education at Te Aute; that a classical training and a technical training in agriculture could not be taken together ?—I think it could be arranged that one should not interfere with the other. 86. In regard to the difficulty in carrying out any extended work in agriculture, you know yourself that if the boys spend hours during the day at ploughing, or at grafting or budding fruittrees, they would be rendered unfit for any classical work?— Yes. My idea, however, is that when the boys are graded to the agricultural branch they would give up scholastic work. 87. If they went on to the station that would not be a part of Te Aute: they would be cadets, and they might be anywhere as well as at Te Aute?—Yes. 88. In regard to the expenses of your brother at Te Aute, what would his expenses for clothing be during the year ?—Of course I have to restrain him. His expenses would be about £25 a year, including passage-money and train fares and subscriptions. 89. Since ten or fifteen years ago in what proportion would you say the expenses of the boys have increased?— According to my remarks, I should say 100 per cent., or more. 90. I do not know whether you made it plain if you thought this increased expense was in any way due to the masters directly?— Not directly, though they may be to blame indirectly. Of course I think they could, make a rule as to what the boys are to wear. I think it is quite right masters in a Native school should do that. Ido not think they should go in for extravagant dressing. 91. With regard to occupations, on the whole you think farming life is best suited to the Maori ? —Yes, to the bulk of the Native people.