A.—sa

110

REl'OltT OF FIIOCEEBIMi* OF THE CO^FEItENCE.

subsidy to a line of steamers for carrying the mails across America to England, for the exclusion of coloured crews. The then proprietors of the steamers had a section of the crew Asiatics. We pointed out that unless the conditions we required under our contract were satisfactorily com plied with, we would withdraw our subsidies. Now I make a distinction between a country giving a subsidy for the carrying of nails by steamers outside of its own conn try. over which thev have no control as to the- conditions, so long as they pay a subsidy, and t hose- which trade in the ordinary sense as tramps or cargo steamers. I support the motion of Mr. Belcnei mi the principle, to which we are wedded in our country, that we believe it is in our interests to have white crews upon our vessels. I fully recognise—and 1 want to say with all due deference to everybody else here that after what we have done ill our Parliaments, and what we are prepared t'. stand by there with regard to the preservation of white crews, the duty passes from us to the Imperial Legislature to make provision for the' crews on Rritish vessels trading to and from Rritish ports. We control our own ports and we control our own class of seamen, and 1 am disposed to think that until the Rritish people themselves see eye to eye with us in our desire to maintain white men on boar,l on, ships you will not he able lo get them from Rritish polls except by legislat ion. Hon. DUGALD 'THOMSON : Does*this motion include t hat '- Snt JOSEPH WARD: I was just trying 1., put my own position. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : Does the motion include Kl it ish ships from o-.ei sea '.' Sib JOSEPH WARD: I for recognise that in what we Inn. done and are doing and intend to do for the preservation of white crews upon our ships, the duty of dealing with over-sea Rritish ships passes from us to the Imperial Legislature when in their judgment I he circumstances connected with the Empire as a whole may seem such as to make it advisable to apply a similar system lo vessels trailing from Croat Britain to either parts o! the Empire. Speaking for New Zealand, wewant the- white race on the ships coming then, and as a matter of policy we would pot give a subsidy to any line of slea is that did not carry a white crew. Tn that respect we protect our people : we consider we are protecting our country; and wo believe that in a very material respect we are helping to provide conditions for having a mercantile marine there which in time of trouble and stress and difficulty may be utilised for the defence of New Zealand, and to that extent aid in the defence of the Empire as a whole. 1 do not wish to introduce any sentiment into the matter. I support Mr. Rei,hers mot ion. and hope the time- is coming when the Imperial Legislature will see its way lo provide similar regulations for the ships trading from this country lo the various parts of the world. Hon. DUGALD 'THOMSON : I agree with previous speakers that the sentiment of Australia, and 1 bine no doubt the sentiment of all here present, is that it is highly desirable to employ Rritish seamen on British ships. At the same time I would not go so far as to say that the feeling of Australia is that we- should go beyond our own limits and trj by any means to impose' that on the Rritish Government. We must recognise their freedom to legislate ill that respect for their shipping just as we desire-oui own freedom. I do not think Me. Belcher's motion means that. I think the resolution, as it is on the agenda, in referring to "any c.-ssel owned, registered, "or chartered to trade in the Commonwealth or New "Zealand" means within our own jurisdiction. Mi:. MILLS . Hear, hear. Mn. BELCHED : I will go this far, that \es.sels that an- chartered, but which do not by any means come under Australian conditions, in so far as manning and (hat kind of thing is concerned, vessels trading regularly from Australia to Calcutta or any other of those places should lie compelled to carry white crews notwithstanding the fact that they may be on English articles. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : May I point out to Mr. Beloher that that is part of the matter that we have not decided as to its being within the scop_ of this Confer eiice. That is the matter which was alluded to by Sir William Lyne this morning, ami which the President. I believe, is going to consult Sir Joseph Ward upon, possibly

Mr. Deakin, and possibly one' of the home authorities, as lo its being within the scope of this Conference. However, I am dealing with the resolution as it is. which seems to affect only those vessels within the Commonwealth and Now Zealand jurisdiction. Mr. Belcher has said he desires that Rritish seamen shall he employed on those boats He will find a great many with him in that desire. Rut as the resolution is phrased. I think there is a very inconvenient and undesirable reflection mi British subjects. Mu. CON : Hear, hear. Ron. DUGALD 'THOMSON : We are here in conference, and we ought io consider the position anil the difficulties of the British Government in this regard. I would suggest to Mr. Belcher that he- would obtain the full effect that he desires wiiat he expressed as his desire in his speech—if he phras*ed this resolution in a different way. something to this effect : "That this Con- " ference is in favour of the employment of Rritish "seamen, to the extent that they may be available, on "any vessel owned, registered, or chartered I" trade In "the Commonwealth or New Zealand." The CHAIRMAN : 'That is on the cast ? Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : That is. within our jurisdiction, as I take it to he-. Thk CHAIRMAN: 'That is not Mr. Belcher's reso lit ion. Hon. DUGALD 'THOMSON : I was pointing out to Mr. Belcher that going beyond thai raises the very question that we are at present in doubt about, as to whether any further extension of our powers beyond what is admitted as being our jurisdiction is a matter for this Conference, or a matter for the decision of tin- Imperial Conference. At any rate, however far it is meant, to apply. I think it would be much hitler that the wording should he altered as I suggested, if Mr. Belcher is prepared to accept that, namely : "'That this Conference "is in favour of (In- employment of British seamen, to "the extent that they may be available, on any vessel "owned, registered, or chartered to trade in the Common- " wealth or New Zealand." I am sun- we must see that in conference here we have t" consider each other's position and each other's difficulties. We must recognise that the Rritish section of this Conference has fully done so in regard to our affairs, and we ought to do so in regard to theirs, and not east reflections by a special resolution, naming these Rritish subjects, when we can get the same result by a different phrasing of the resolution. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: I would like to ask whether this resolution, in your opinion, sir. does extend in its present form to vessels other than those- employed on the coasts of Australia and New Zealand ! Tin: CHAIRMAN: I haw- looked at it from thai point of view, ami I think it is very ambiguous. Mr. Belcher's interpretation of it certainly extends it beyond the home- conditions. _ Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I know that. Tin: CHAIRMAN : And I think il is very desirable that the Conference should know what it is really voting upon. Sir Joseph Ward's speech was directed purely to the home waters. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Quite 'Tin: CHAIRMAN : And so was Sir William Lyne's speech, as I understood it. Sin WILLIAM I.VNK: Direct,-,I to what, did you say ! 'I'm: CHAIRMAN : Directed to the territorial waters of tin- Commonwealth. SlB WILLIAM LYNE: Yes. I do nof see how we can extend it to India. Mil. MILLS : 'Then we an- all agreed. Mn. LLEWELLYN SMITH: We passed a resolution that the Australian conditions applv. llos. DUGALD 'THOMSON : Vou may have an opinion on the phrasing of this motion?